By:Stickel Versus Jones

I purposely took both bikes to Sedona to compare them and rode the Jones in the morning, and the By:Stickel in the afternoon. I only had about two hours on the Jones prior to this ride and maybe 60 hours on the By:Stickel. Imagine my surprise when I rode more comfortably and confidently in technical terrain, and at high speed on the Jones. It wasn't even close.

This sort of move was no problem on the Jones, it would have scared me on the By:Stickel.



This move did scare me. Rideable, but scary/nervous. I was wishing I had the other bike at this moment.


Photo cred: Aquaholic

The difference between the bikes really bugged me, and I have been thinking a lot about the whys since that ride. The main issue was the incredible stability of the front end of the Jones. The By:Stickel in comparison felt like it bounced/flexed all over, couldn't get traction, and in general was not confidence inspiring at all in comparison. Steve thinks it is the fork and I am sure that is the biggest part of it.

Since that ride, I swapped the rather flexy On-One Carbon for an 1100 gm no name steel fork. I had a very short comparison ride today and things are better. Ultimately, I do not think it is possible for the By:Stickel to have the same front rigidity as the Jones without being non-suspension corrected, with a 135 spaced front wheel, and a truss fork. The only thing that would do it would be a 1400 gm dirt-jumpable 29" suspension corrected fork (which does not exist to my knowledge). I am thinking of trying a Niner Carbon fork, but the investment is steep, especially since I don't know if it will help hugely.

Ultimately, the By:Stickel will likely end up with a 100mm tapered suspension fork. It is probably done as my rigid technical bike.

Riding them back to back, the Jones feels much heavier (same weight for both), but somewhat unflappable, like riding a tank. Stiff and controllable, but on the harsh side. The By:Stickel feels significantly lighter and more playful, but less competent/confident when things get serious. I need to get some more back to back rides on them, because I am sure there is such a thing as too rigid up front and the Jones is approaching that point for me. Perhaps with the steel fork the By:Stickel will be that magic combination of comfort and control. If I had a super long ride on more mellow trails, I would take the By:Stickel for sure. It fits me perfectly.

Anyway, the strong/stiff front end of the Jones makes moves like this go from a bit terrifying to actually fun.



That rock proceeds to straight vertical, and then after a bit of a free fall into a 1/4 pipe G-out. It is not hard, you just need to commit, hang on, and hope nothing breaks off the front end. I have done it on many bikes, but it always gave me a bit of pause when I hit it rigid. Honestly it scared me. I hit it three times today and found it more exhilarating than scary. When it counts, I prefer the stiffness up front.

Rigid Bike Geek Out

Let me just come out and say it: I rode the Stickel and the Jones back to back in Sedona, and the Jones simply spanked the EnelStickel so bad I am contemplating selling it.

The Stickel just feels like there is too much stuff moving around at any given point. It reminds me of when I went from an older QR Reba to the WB 150. Everything is just quieter feeling on the Jones. You feel a bash when you hit something and then you move on without a lot of secondary wiggling around and vibration.

I have felt the Stickel to be somewhat flexy from the first ride, and then I adapted because I essentially only rode that one bike. Riding it back to back, it is pretty obvious I prefer a stiffer bike when charging hard. The Simon Bar is also pretty stiff and I loved that frame.

Geometrically, the Jones and the Stickel are not far apart at all as far as the relationship between the BB, axles, and bars. The have almost the same trail. The Jones has a slightly longer seated cockpit due to slacker STA, but reach and rise are close to identical, standing riding geometry is very close.

The Jones has a heavier downtube and chain/seatstays.

The Jones has that amazing Truss fork and longer head tube.

The Jones is not suspension corrected (a-c in the 130 range.)

The Jones has 135mm width front wheel which I would guess is a little stiffer laterally.

All the above obviously adds up to something special

There is lot of stuff going on in that front end that gives the Jones its precise, planted feel, and it isn't a fair comparison really. Steve built a bike that could be rigid or suspended, the Jones has a one track mind.

I did a little experiment in the garage last night. I took my four rigid bikes and held the front brake and balanced them on the front wheel, and just pushed up and down until I found the resonant frequency where they would vibrate back and forth a bit. It is in the range of 2-3 herz for these bikes.

The Stickel with Carbon fork vibrated the slowest, and by far the most, even bouncing up off the ground if I kept it going at the resonant frequency.

Karate monkey Frame/fork was a little faster and less flexy.

Simon Bar/Carbon fork was still a little faster and less flexy.

Jones: Flex was way less, not even in the league of the other bikes, and the frequency was out of the ball park higher than the other frames.

I think a lot of what I am noticing is suspension corrected versus non-corrected. A suspension corrected bike simply can not compete when it comes to front end flex with a rigid fork.

I put a Steel fork on the Stickel to test again, and it was marginally better.

I guess I am pretty sensitive to front end flex. I remember I quit riding my Zion frame with a suspension fork because it just flexed too much. The Enelstickle uses the same tubing diameter....Ack!

I have never had a non-corrected frame before, and am open to anyone's thoughts.

Sedonuts

Sedonuts in the company of a Nut.


















































Words:

First rode Hangover on the Jones. Dreamy, and I was able to charge the thing hard from what was essentially my second hour on the bike. Yes, the stays are longish (comparatively) at 16.9", but the build is completely dialed. Tight and predictable, and confidence inspiring all the way around. FR3 front/rear. Excellent rock tire IMO. Even Aqua noticed how it outperformed his Ardent (or maybe my braking was better??)

Afternoon, second ride, switched to the Bystickel on Chicken point/High on the Hog and just flailed all over the place. I could not keep the front hooked up (FR4), especially in sand over rock or off camber rock. Steve noticed that conditions were looser, but man I had very little confidence in the set up. Right now I am pretty disappointed I bothered with the custom thing because the Jones is outperforming it in actual riding. The Stickel just feels like there is too much stuff moving around at any given point. It reminds me of when I went from an older QR Reba to the WB 150. Everything is just quieter feeling on the Jones. You feel the bash and then you move on without a lot of secondary wiggling around and vibration.

I am going to put an FR3 on the front of both and try again, but I can't believe I may be walking away from the Stickel. Maybe I just need a different fork?

It must be some combo of long HT, Truss, and 135 spaced front (would I notice that?). It is the best riding rigid I have ridden for sure. Not bad for $1100 imo.

Jones

Acquired a Jones Tiawanese frame/fork.  This is a dedicated rigid, non suspension corrected 29" bike.

First dial in ride this am.

Impressions:

Overall a nice bike.  It is very burly and more nimble than most bikes I have ridden save the Bystickel.  16.9" chainstays, 22.5" ETT, 25.5" front center, 42" wheelbase.






Finish is quite good.



Geometry is nearly dialed for me (comments below).  I especially like the steering feel.





General burliness of the build:  Superb.  Not much if any flex to this thing which to my mind is a good thing.  I especially like how stiff and confidence inspiring the front end is, the truss, long head tube and large diameter downtube deliver.  The Bystickel with carbon fork feels pretty whippy in comparison.  However, this comes at the cost of ride quality.  In my mind, if you are complaining about the ride quality of a rigid bike, you have no business being on one, just go buy some suspension.  Whippy bikes are unpredictable and I prefer mine stiff.





I like it a lot, especially as a pre-packaged unit, and at the price.





What would I change if I was building a custom:
1.  1/2" shorter chainstays
2.  A few mm more tire clearance on each side.
3.  1/4-1/2" longer front center.
4.  30.9 (i.d.) and possibly un-bent seat tube to allow for a 5" dropper post.
5.  I would change nothing on this bike forward of the BB.
6.  Lose all the doo dads for extra gears, racks, etc  One gear is all I need:)


I think it is a great package deal from Jeff Jones.  The price is fair and it is one of the better riding rigid bikes I have been on.  I am excited to get some more time on it in different terrain.

Addendum:

I think I am adapting nicely:



Michael Jordan would be proud. Not a bad J-hop for an old dude if I do say so myself.

I got out for a more woodsy ride this afternoon with the young'n.  He noticed the "Jones" sticker sparkled in rainbow colors in direct sun, but I never saw it.  Apparently it glows in the dark also:



 Nice touch.

I didn't get much up to speed, but climbing felt like pretty much every bike, and the few times I got up to speed descending, it was super predictable with lots of front end grip.  When the front lost traction, it was easy and predictable to manage it.

I like new bikes.

This weekend

Dan an I got up early for a beating on the old 37 loop.

Sooo, I swapped the FR4 and the Purgatory front to rear.  Now FR4 front with Purg rear. At the same time I went to 32X20 gearing for a chainstay of around 16.5"  I got a really nice chunky ride in today with some brutal climbing (steep with 60 water bars in 1 mile), steep loose down, slow chunk, wider open loose two track mellow climbing.

First:  I swear I noticed the change in bar height swapping these tires front to rear.  It felt like the front end was 10mm higher and it probably was.  That FR4 is tall.  I liked it on the front traction wise.  I ran the pressure pretty low and pounded it a few times into sharpish things and never felt it bottom.  Same in the rear.

Second:  dang this gear is hard.  I can push it, but I walk just a bit more and I don't know if I have the suffering tolerance to continue on with it.  I will though for a while to see if I can build the strength.  How can it be possible to breath so hard at such a low cadence.  Yep, blowing up at 40rpm.....This was my first time pushing 32X20 and I have to say respect to the folks that can do it.

Third:  I think this is the sweet spot for the stays.  Front end is nice and light without being to nervous at speed.

I will ride this set up for more than a few hours....

It works all right



Of course, 17" stays work fine too: